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Lawyering 101: Marketing is in the Fine Print – How Every Interaction Shapes Your Brand

Lawyers understand better than most the significance of words – after all, who comprehends more than a contract lawyer that a subtle clause can either seal or sabotage a deal?

Yet, who better than your marketing team realizes that “marketing” often carries negative connotations?

It shouldn’t – and I’ll delve into why shortly.

But how many of you (raise your hands) view marketing as something handled sporadically by a group in your office?

How many of you associate marketing solely with brochures and advertisements?

How many of you see marketers as individuals who merely solicit funds and then design logos or ensure an ample supply of business cards?

Okay, lower your hands. I have news for you – marketing encompasses everything you do.

So, oftentimes, we use terms like “marketing,” “business development,” “branding,” and others rather interchangeably. Though nuanced and distinct, for the purpose of today’s discussion, let’s focus on marketing and refer to the American Marketing Association’s official definition:

“Marketing is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.”

Marketing is Ubiquitous.

When phrased in this manner, it’s evident that much of what you do as a lawyer falls under the umbrella of marketing – even your legal work, which entails delivering offerings that hold value for clients, is marketing. Every interaction you and your firm have with clients, potential clients, and influencers constitutes marketing.

Every time your assistant or the firm’s receptionist answers the phone: Marketing.

Every time a client receives an email from you: Marketing.

Every time a client receives a bill from you: Marketing.

Every time you discuss your professional endeavors with someone: Marketing.

Every time you welcome a client or potential client into your office: Marketing.

Does that notion unsettle you a bit? It should. It boils down to this: everything you do, from what you convey to how you convey it, to the appearance of your office, to the company you keep, and more, shapes the impression that people form about you and your business – that’s marketing. All of it.

There’s a compelling insight from Blue Kite Marketing on why you should adopt a marketer’s mindset, stating:

“Marketing is something that should permeate your entire organization. After all, every interaction and touchpoint with customers can be scrutinized or applauded and then shared with the world.”

Word of mouth remains crucial in the legal sphere – always has been. With social media, every one of those impressions is not solely experienced by the client, potential client, or influencer; it’s something each of them can share with a broad audience – they’re no longer merely recounting a story among friends and family; they’re posting it online for the world to see.

And guess what? That’s marketing too. Are you certain people are conveying what you want them to about you and your firm?

Blue Kite Marketing emphasizes that “every employee is in the marketing department.” That doesn’t imply that you need to start contemplating running ads or determining the optimal graphics for your brochure (and as a side note, that’s also NOT what your marketing department is doing either).

It signifies recognizing that everything you do – including how you practice law – communicates a message about the kind of lawyer you are. How you manage your clients, engage with colleagues and referral sources, network at events and in social settings, and collaborate with your associates – all amalgamate to represent you as a lawyer.

Have you pondered the kind of experience you’re delivering through those facets? Is it the message you want clients, potential clients, and influencers to perceive about you and share with others? (You may recall we touched on this to some extent in our discussion on personal branding.)

What Sets You Apart

When I pose this question, I’m sure you can instantly recollect your elevator speech – the succinct couple of sentences describing what you do and the value you bring to your clients. And to some degree, that’s what we’re exploring here. But let’s delve deeper.

Blue Kite Marketing posits:

“People use hundreds of products and services every day. About 95 percent of those interactions go completely unnoticed. Another three percent of those experiences are ones that you are complaining about. What makes the remaining two percent worth talking about?”

Reflect for a moment on all the interactions you engage in daily – with colleagues, with providers of goods and services, with family members and friends, etc. Which of those are the most memorable?

Ask yourself WHY those interactions stand out. Perhaps someone went the extra mile when they didn’t have to, or someone comprehended your needs even when articulated differently. Maybe they exhibited exceptional kindness and cheerfulness in a challenging situation, or they recalled something about you from a previous encounter that surprised you.

Jot it down and contemplate how you can translate that into the kind of service you provide to your clients. If something is memorable for you, it will be memorable for your clients (provided you translate it to address their needs and desires).

When you create memorable experiences for your clients, potential clients, and influencers, you empower them to advocate for you – they’ll be marketing for you. Why is that crucial? We’re far more inclined to consider doing business with someone if someone we trust recounts a remarkable experience they had with that individual – not merely a good experience, but a remarkable one.

Ask yourself today – what makes me worth talking about?

Remember, being an exceptional lawyer delivering client value in your practice is essentially the bare minimum in today’s marketplace. Numerous outstanding lawyers possess excellent education, extensive experience, and aptitude. But what will prompt a client, a colleague, or a friend to endorse someone else from the rooftops?

Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast | Alishan Naqvee, LexCounsel

Alishan Naqvee is the founding partner of LexCounsel, one of the ILN’s member firms in India. In this episode, Alishan and Lindsay delve into several serious and interesting topics, from the very different and yet linked internal and external challenges of managing a law firm to the changing landscape of the legal industry for corporate lawyers or “boardroom lawyers” to the potential impact of AI on the industry.

You can listen to the podcast here, or we’ve provided a transcript of the highlights below.

Lindsay: Hello, and welcome to the Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast. I’m your host, Lindsay Griffiths, executive director of the International Lawyers Network. Our guest this week is Alishan Naqvee of LexCounsel in New Delhi. We’re really happy to have you with us, Alishan. If you could take a couple of minutes to tell us about yourself and your firm and your practice, we would really appreciate that.

Alishan: Well, thanks, Lindsay, for this session. Thank you very much. I have been a lawyer practicing for the last 25 years. Seems like an age since I started practicing. Over this period of time, I have practiced in the area of corporate law. Started as a corporate lawyer, went on to become a litigator. So, I do both. My individual practice includes both litigation and corporate. I set up the firm LexCounsel with three other partners, at that time in 2004 after having worked in different firms for about five to six years, and we have completed a number of years and as you see we’ll be completing about 20 years of this firm next year.

We have over this period of time worked for numerous Fortune 500 companies. In fact, a lot of Fortune 100 companies also, brought in many businesses to India. Worked in some of the widely reported cases in the Indian courts, had very good ratings in a lot of legal directories. Accumulated a number of hardworking and diligent workers with us, lawyers with us, and very good affiliations. We have about five offices, so I can’t complain about the practice, and I can’t complain about the way this law firm has panned out for us, along with the association with ILN.

Lindsay: That’s great. It’s interesting because your firm started the same year that I started my career in the legal industry, so we’re right about the same time.

Alishan: Very good.

Lindsay: So, let’s get into our questions. What would you say is the biggest challenge for you at the moment, and how are you working to overcome that?

Alishan: So, Lindsay, I gave a thought about it, and there are two things. One is internal and one is external. Those are the challenges that I face, and to have a candid talk over the podcast. The internal challenges, of course, are client expectations. There are also you have… I am of a different generation, we have lawyers of different generation, priorities are different, working styles are different. We started in the time when we had to go to the library and look for a case law. So, finding the law was very difficult at that time. Today, finding the law is very easy, but so is the easy for your adversaries. The opposite side also has access to the same law. So, knowledge is no longer the factor which tilts the scale in your favor. It is actually the analysis which is the differentiator. So, while everybody has access to the same law, you have to have better analytical abilities to be successful in the world.

So, one thing that we see, especially is because each law firm operates in a different way, you have lateral hires, of course, you have homegrown talent also, people who join you, who interned with you, who joined. And we have people who interned with us, joined us after becoming a lawyer, and today they are partners with us. And they’re also heading some of the other offices that we have. At the same time, the reality of this practice is that you also have lateral hires. Sometimes the culture of reporting to the managing client expectations is very different in different forms. So, it takes time. So as the practice grows, it becomes very difficult for somebody who has set up the firm and who’s managing the practice to put everybody and everyone in the same format of client responsiveness, managing client expectation. And that is one of the internal challenge.

It’s a constant challenge, and as I speak with my colleagues who are partners in different firms, managing practice, having practicing partners with them who are looking after different clients, but they are managing the overall practice, like being the litigation head or corporate head. That is the issue that they also are facing. And this is a challenge where different partners have different working style, but otherwise you are part of the same firm. So, bringing that parity, bringing that semblance, bringing that equity, bringing that same way of approaching clients and client problems, bringing the firm culture, also keeping everybody happy is one of the internal challenge. And it’s a constantly moving goalpost. Now in terms of external challenge, what in India typically I will say, that the challenge that I’m seeing in the last few years is the differentiation that is coming in the boardroom versus courtroom lawyers.

And let me explain that a little bit. As a courtroom lawyer, I am engaged by a client in a case post facto, means that the reason for which that person is going to the court, either to assert a right or to defend himself, whether against the government or against any private party, that issue has already happened. My engagement is after that. I have no say in the happening or not happening of that event. My role is very much limited on a power of autonomy, which, in India is to represent that client to the best of my abilities. But when you are a boardroom lawyer and you are sitting with the management in the boardroom so many times, you also see transactions and you also see issues which are coming up so many times, you also have your own policies. So many times, their business compulsions have declined.

So, at that time you have to take a call and tell the client that this is legally permissible, this is not legally permissible. And sometimes it may so happen that different clients have different risk appetite. So, at some point of time, if a client has a risk appetite higher than you, what do you do? You stay in the board, or you disengage. So, the differentiation of boardroom versus courtroom lawyer is a very important differentiation, and this is a challenge. Now, challenge is because this is a matter of perception. For me, the risk perception of a particular transaction as a boardroom lawyer may be different as compared to some of my partners, some of my associates.

And most of the meetings, if a three year or four-year associate is going, the firm is participating. So now you understand. So that is the second challenge that we have to face. And this is an unforeseen situation, because you can’t predict what will be discussed at a meeting. You can’t talk about these probabilities. So, then you have to come, you have to review, you have to take a call. This management is not essentially legal practice, but management of your practice in an ethical and legal way, which is an external challenge that all of us face today.

Lindsay: It’s interesting, because I actually think those two challenges, especially the boardroom lawyer challenge, ties into your internal challenges, because you’re talking about this need for expertise and the way that the practice of law has changed and how lawyers learn and how it used to be this need for having to go to law books and now knowledge is really at your fingertips. And so, the way that lawyers are learning has really changed. And so, as you say, it is really about the analysis of the law and how lawyers pick that up.

And so, as you say, you might have this three, four-year associate that you’ve got going into a boardroom meeting and you don’t know what’s going to be discussed. And so, you have to really have confidence in that lawyer and the way they analyze the situation. So, it’s a question of the level of confidence that you have in those lawyers, how they’re learning. And so, it’s sort of a juxtaposition between those two things. How do you really have confidence in how lawyers are learning today and the analysis of the situation and their appetite for risk as it relates to the client’s appetite for risk? So, sometimes those challenges really overlap quite interestingly.

Alishan: Correct. And Lindsay, what is also happening in the Indian landscape is that there is a legal responsibility and accountability which is being fixed. Across the world also it was there, it is coming in India. So chartered accountants and company secretaries have separate obligations for ensuring the legality of the transactions of the clients that they see. Very soon we’ll also have it. Now, there was a general principle of law which applied more to courtroom lawyers that a lawyer cannot be forced to testify against the client.

Now that applies typically to courtroom lawyers because a client comes to you, he says, this was my transaction. Was is the important word. This was my transaction, and this has happened. Now, how do you defend myself? A lawyer usually won’t say it was illegal, I will not defend you because a lawyer’s job is not to decide for the client. That is the job of the judge. That’s why their name has the prefix or suffix of justice. I’m only an advocate. So, justice has to come from there. My job and my professional obligation to represent that client, even if he’s a murderer to the best of my abilities. I sit in judgment. And if this principle were adopted across the world, if lawyers became judges, a lot of people would not find any counsel.

So, the basic tenet of my profession is that I have to represent my client knowing the facts to the best of my abilities. Now with that came the protection for the lawyers that you cannot be forced to testify against your clients. That is true for courtroom lawyers. But across the world, the scenario is changing, now this is not true for the boardroom lawyers. I have seen in different jurisdictions where the boardroom lawyers get called by the government authorities to testify. So that is why this is very important for your own practice also, that everybody in the firm understands that that protection that you have is available for the court matters, it is not available for boardroom matters. And that is where you need to draw a line and you need to be very stringent about it.

Lindsay: Absolutely. And that goes back to your point about the firm needing to be involved with the boardroom lawyers because as you say, then that needs to have the full protection of the firm and the full advocacy of the firm because you can’t just send in a young lawyer to be there because you don’t know what’s going to be discussed. And if it is a question of the client having a greater appetite for risk than the firm would have, and then the firm is going to get called in to discuss that risk at a later date, then that’s really concerning.

Alishan: And at the same time, you have to be constantly in touch with your… And this is not the challenge that I’m facing. I speak for and on behalf of most of the friends that I have who are my legal colleagues who was in a partnership position or leadership head of the practice position. So, this is the general feeling in India. So, I’m talking about from the Indian landscape.

Lindsay: Right.

Alishan: This is a challenge, not within my firm alone, but this is a general challenge that India is facing when we talk about judicial landscape. It’s an external challenge, which we have to face.

Lindsay: Right. Right. Wow, that’s a lot. Well, on that note, can you talk more generally than about the current state of the market and what that means for you and your clients?

Alishan: Well, India is a happy place to be in. We have started the form, I mean pretty much around the world, it is understood now that India is fairly recession proof. We are an autonomous place where demand and supply is automatically met. We have lots and lots of work from domestic when I started practice. In fact, the best of the clients were from abroad because you could build them well, they were different rates of billing. But today, there is a lot of significant inflow which is coming from outside of India, also into India because India is the place to be. We have a lot of startups which have become unicorns in terms of funding. And funding, I frequently hear it from my friends who are in the industry who source funding, who are themselves investors or who had the funds, venture capitalist stock hedge funds. They say funding is really easy in India because India holds a promise.

So, India is a very good steady story. India is a very good place to be. In fact, India is the new lead of opportunity. And a lot of things are going on for my country, including the language skill, including the stringent and more stringent framework of law that we have, which is giving comfort to a lot of foreign investors. We have a good regime of protection of intellectual property. So, all those things and plus the understanding of law plus the court system. So, I’m very happy to be in India that way. Another thing that in India is happening right now is, and which makes the job of a lawyer like us who deal in litigation and in corporate law a little more difficult because India is also undergoing a significant change in the laws. So, we had the laws… Most of the laws came from the time that we were under colonial rule.

Our penal code for example, our criminal laws, except for the criminal procedure code. That Indian penal code was drafted in 18th century, late 18th century. So those laws are now being rewritten. There are insolvency law which has been rewritten sometime back which has come into being, company law was rewritten. So, what happens with that under a common law country, we follow a precedent system, our judicial precedence on binding orders. So, there is a law and there’s the interpretation of the court of that particular law that is called judicial precedent. When the court interprets a particular law, it is binding within the jurisdiction of that court. So, India is a huge country, we have a lot of high courts.

So the challenge as a lawyer also is to keep yourself aware of all the judgments and also when you do litigation strategy, because my firm practices across India, but in some part of the country there could be one judicial precedent coming from one high court, which may be binding, which may be slightly different in a different court, which is a different high court, unless the Supreme Court decides whose judgments are binding across India. So, while laws are changing, older precedents don’t work with the new laws to some extent because new law may have new precedent and when you have a problem, there may be no precedent. Then you have different high courts. It’s a very large judicial system in India. So that is one thing which is quite challenging, quite interesting. Thankfully with the online libraries and all judicial… The access to judgments as I said earlier, has become easier. Nevertheless, it’s a constant task for the lawyers.

Lindsay: I can imagine. And with things ever-changing, it must be you never know what you’re going to get when you go to court as a litigator.

Alishan: Yes. It’s a constant knowledge announcement process and sometimes the other opposing party or a client or a senior advocate, we have a system of senior advocates where are the advocates, which is special knowledge of law and special contribution, are designated by the court itself to be a senior advocate. They wear a different type of gown and their dress slightly different, black and white, but slightly different. So, they come across and they also tell you some judicial precedent maybe of 20 years back where the same legal principle can be applied and then you go back, and you check it and then you apply to it. So judicial precedent system makes the Indian legal practice and common law legal practice very interesting. It’s not only the law, but also the law, how is it read by the courts?

Lindsay: At least it means things are never dull.

Alishan: Never dull. Yes. We can’t have a dull, we are so many people in India, we don’t have a dull day. Never.

Lindsay: That’s true. That’s true. You are so many people in India. So, what’s the biggest area that’s related either to your practice area or the legal industry in general that you’re curious about?

Alishan: I’d say one thing that has intrigued me in the recent time is the role that artificial intelligence will play. And we have two lines of thinking. We have the likes of visionaries like Elon Musk famously saying that AI is going to make a lot of job and almost all the job redundant recently. At the same time we also have viewpoints where they say that the strategy and analysis with the accumulation of knowledge of law is something which is specific of a particular lawyer. In the given situation, two lawyers may think differently. So, to what extent would AI help us? To what extent will AI replace us? To what extent will AI replace the lawyers at different level? I mean, would AI replace me for my clients, or would AI only replace the lawyers in the bracket of zero to three years in their practice? That means research and drafting, but analysis.

Now, if you see everybody in every jurisdiction, every lawyer goes through the same qualification. They read the same law. Still some lawyers are successful, some aren’t. And when we go to lawyers and we go to doctors, we always give preference to experience. Why? Because the study of law is one thing, but experience of that law and how it’ll pan out in the poll, how the judges will be sensitive about it, how the society will perceive it, how your action will be accepted at the board level, at the shareholder level is something that does not come from the pure study of law. Now whether AI will be able to replace it at any point of time, this judgment is another area which I often think about. Now, let me take a step further. We have a precedent system. I feed in all the precedents we already have online, all the precedents I feed in into the AI system.

Can I say that the courts can be eliminated? You just feed in your facts and the AI writes the judgment for you. So, I was reading somewhere that AI works at three levels, and we have to decide at one point of time, and this is what makes me curious when it comes to legal area as to at what level should we or would we permit AI? And before that, we also assume that we have an ability to permit because AI may automatically just take over without asking for our permission because there are time a dozen companies selling their AI products to law firms every day. So, there is no single body which is today controlling as still what extent AI shall be permitted in legal industry. But when it comes to permission, AI can work in three levels. One is ChatGPT, type where it assimilates all the information with some intelligence and follow up questions and gives it to you. That is the first level.

Second is where AI can solve small problems, for example, traffic violation. Those kind of orders need not be written by the judges because now there is a documentary evidence, there is a photograph of somebody jumping a traffic light and there is nothing to be done in the trial, there is a fixed penalty you paid. Then there come the complex disputes like shareholder disputes, like murder trials where the life and liberty of a person or financial significant financial issues may be at a state, whether AI can go at that domain also and in both the second and third domain, whether the human intervention shall be required.

So, it may happen that in traffic violation cases, AI writes the judgment or AI passes the order, but on a random sampling basis, the judge checks them random, this is like chartered accountants do audit. But when it is a higher dispute or a life and liberty matter, the AI can be used to write a judgment, but at the same time all the judgments and every judgment must necessarily be approved by two or three judges. So, their time of writing a judgment and assimilating the precedent is reduced but is still checking review. So, I don’t know where it will stop, where will it go? But ultimately it’s not on that. The debate of AI is not about eliminating the job of zero to three years. AI, artificial intelligence will grow more intelligent. It’ll go up from three years to senior associates, to councils, to partners, to judges. And whether it’s… That is what I’m curious about Lindsay.

Lindsay: It’s a really interesting question because it starts to… You’re right because the areas that it, as you say, it gets more complex because as you are discussing the complexity of it, I’m thinking about murder trials in particular because I have a secondary interest in true crime. And so, you can talk about the trial and inputting all of the evidence into AI and then letting it decide. But what you’re talking about when you talk about evidence, a lot of that evidence is fallible because the evidence itself is gathered by people and often it’s not accurate because I mean in the US, one in nine capital murder cases is overturned because the evidence itself is fallible. Not even so much the judgment.

And those statistics are terrible because when you think about putting someone to death, just to be transparent, I don’t believe in capital murder for those reasons. And so, if you think about what you would put into an AI, if you are dealing with people putting it into a computer, the computer itself isn’t gathering the evidence. So right there you’re already dealing with fallibility and so the judgment itself would be flawed because you’re dealing with flawed humans putting in evidence that is gathered by people who might have flawed motives and all of those things. So, I think that’s really an interesting case.

As you say, things like maybe traffic tickets where you have something that’s a little more clear cut because you have computers that are gathering the evidence and then computers that are dealing with the evidence is a little different. But as you get to more complex issues, same thing with boardroom discussions where how do you know that the AI is getting all of the relevant information? You don’t. And then the judgment that they’re deciding on, they may not have all of the information to make the correct judgment.

Alishan: Correct. And also, Lindsay, the trial, as you said, trial. It’s very interesting and I’m happy you said it because it’s not about the facts and the judgment. There is a lot which goes in the court in between, there is a cross-examination. Cross-examination is of a witness by a lawyer, both sides. And cross-examination plays a very important part in ultimate decision-making by the judge. So, part of the process, which means that part of the process will be AI, part of the process won’t be, and part of the process will lack in AI. That’s not possible. Now when I discuss it with some of the colleagues, lawyers, they say, “No, that’s never going to happen.” I said, “It’s very good to assume that that’s never going to happen.” When I started my law, studied. And before that I did graduation decades back, I’m an old man. There was no mobile phone.

I used to write a letter to my mother because I came to a different town and it used to reach her in seven days, six to seven days. Then we had phones available in India and it wasn’t in every home. So, we used to book a call and we used to wait. At that time, if somebody would’ve told me that you would have a device on which you will just type a letter and it’ll be delivered like a telegram or an instant message, I would’ve not believed it. So today, if somebody tells me that this is never going to happen, they are just ignoring the truth. If technology can process from a handwritten letter to instant messaging across the world and I and you talking to each other in different time zones on a real time basis when I talk to you, I’m actually talking to future or talking to the past. You are talking to the future because I’m adding to you in time.

Lindsay: That’s right. That’s right.

Alishan: See, we are talking at the same time, but in different… So, this is the marvel of technology. This is the reality. So today saying that AI will not go up to that level is I think ignoring what has to happen. If we have to think of a problem, we have to think now rather than having a problem and then trying to correct it. As I said, there is no body today governing the role of AI into the legal industry. And there are a lot of companies who are centered around infusing AI into legal practice.

A lot of law firms for profitability reasons are also adopting it to some extent. Where will you stop and who will you stop it? Because I have the sole decision over the profitability and revenue abilities and the discharge of work of my client, I don’t need to take anybody’s permission if I want to take a software for contract management, which has a little bit of AI. So, these are the questions. So, you asked, what am I curious about? My curiosity these days is centered around this. I ask myself questions, I give myself answers. Some of the answers don’t answer the questions. Some of the questions are never answered. I’m just going in these circles.

Lindsay: And now you’ve given me a lot to think about, which is always a good thing, I think. But yes, it’s important to think about these things because as you said, things are going to change and where do we stop? So, AI does lack nuance. So, it’s important to begin to think about these things and where we’re going with it before we get to the point where we can’t stop it.

Alishan: Yes.

Lindsay: Yes. Yes. Okay, so let’s switch gears a little bit. Now that we’re afraid of our robot overlords, tell us something interesting about yourself that most people don’t know.

Alishan: A lot actually. I read somewhere a phrase on the funny side. They say, I may be an open book, but a few pages are missing.

Lindsay: I like that.

Alishan: So no, not really. That was joking. I’m fairly transparent, but something that people will not know that I had this passion of going into armed forces all the time and during my law or graduation before that in India, this recruitment process takes, it used to take two, three years because it was an elite exam. So, I have served in Indian Armed Forces, which is in the Ministry of Home Affairs. It is paramilitary force for a small-time as a commissioned officer.

Lindsay: Wow.

Alishan: Yes.

Lindsay: I did not know that.

Alishan: It was very short extent. I resigned and came back after six to seven months after enrollment because there was some constraints for which I had to come back and then rejoined the legal practice in the same firm from where I had left. Before going, I had asked my head of the firm at that time whether I should go or not go. It was the first year of my legal career. So that person said that “You are just starting to be a lawyer, and there you will be a commissioned officer appointed by the president of India in the Indian Armed Forces, it’s extremely prestigious. If I was at your place, I would’ve gone. But the additional comfort that I can give to you is that you can come back any day you want.” That made my decision so easy. And I think today if I would’ve gone, I would’ve perhaps lived in regret at some extent that what if I would’ve lived that life?

Now I know I went there because of some reasons at my family, I could not pursue it any further, so I had to come back. But there’s a great satisfaction, but this part of my life, people don’t know. Other than that, I love spending time, I love monuments. I love seeing ancient historic sites and monuments and we started… I’m based in Delhi. Delhi is a city which is full of monuments. Even if I see a monument every week, I can’t complete all the monuments in my lifetime. There are so many of them spread across India, across Delhi. So, when my daughter is free, the Sundays or Saturday she’s free, visually go in the morning we visit one monument, we identify a monument, read about the history, go there, walk around, and then we have lunch together and come back. That is the sweetest time that I have during the week.

Unfortunately, with my daughter growing up, she’s not allowed to have that time every week because she has her projects and assignments. But whenever I do that, I just love it. And during winters, because winters in our part of the world are more pleasant than the summers. So, during winters of course we try and do it more frequently.

Lindsay: I love that. That’s so great. What a cool thing to do.

Alishan: Yes.

Lindsay: That’s so cool. What would you say is the most important lesson that you’ve learned over your career?

Alishan: Well I have learned not only one, but several lessons. So, what is that? A client can always leave you, but a friend can never leave you. So, what I have thought over a period of time and what we have started doing is a form also. And it’s automatically because if you watch out for the client, the clients become your friends. Some of our longest lasting clients are who weren’t our friends before they became clients. They came on an arm’s length basis and over a period of time when we delivered them legal services in both litigation and corporate area, they slowly started becoming friends and they are continuing with us. So, for the clients and also lawyer, our profession is a profession of comfort and trust. It’s not only a profession of legal acumen, but also understanding the need of the client. It’s also delivering, but at the same time, there is also personal touch.

So, my first lesson is, which I tell everyone in my firm and others have told me also, that a client will leave you, Frank cannot leave you. Second thing that I’ve learned is I have the right to decide the fee for my professional services. Now in India, what has happened is that we are a big country, a lot of lawyers, a lot of law firms are also assuming now, and that has always been the case. But with now global aspirations and all, of course today’s generation more enterprising, more financially secure from home. So, a lot of law firms are coming up and sometimes we do face this situation where the fee comparisons happen. The clients also get three fee codes. I mean, that’s fairly standard across the world that you get two or three fee codes. So again, to understand that I am the sole deciding factor of what my fee would be, and a client may remain with us or come to us at that fee or may not come to us that fee, but we have to stick to whatever fee is.

Now, on the funny side, I’ve also learned that clients who pay you the least give you the maximum amount of sorrow. I was just joking, but somewhere that’s true. From the Indian landscape, Lindsay, I’ve also understood, because I started this firm and I have had friends who went to some of the bigger law firms, went to the competition law practice group or went to the intellectual law practice group, went to the stock markets group and do listing. Now I put a startup firm after six to seven years of practice, five to six years of practice because I practice in all the areas of law. Now, when a client becomes your friend and their client has business across India, he will have requirement in tax, he may have an employment law, he may have in litigation on different funds recovery to insolvency anything, bank loans, shareholder disputes.

So, if you are only specialized in a particular area, you may be called a specialist. But in India, to be able to start your own practice, a journalist law firm set up, a journalist with a very good and grounded understanding of law and landscape in India, practicalities of the Indian landscape is better as compared to only a specialist. Now with these specialists, when they have a aspiration of setting up their own farm, they end up setting up a law firm, which specifically in competition law, now their scope, their fishing net is not cast very wide.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm.

Alishan: They can only catch some of the competition law clients because competition law clients will also have issues and will also have preferences of not going to a freshly startup law firm, they would want to go with established name. It becomes much more difficult. I often tell lawyers because the profession of law gives you this unique advantage of working in-house, working with law firms as also being able to set up your own practice and which is a very important ingredient of practice of law. You can be independent.

So, I tell mostly the lawyers who are willing to listen to me, not all of them also want to get lessons from seniors, but those who are willing to listen to me, I say never say no to work. If you get an apportion to go to the court, go there. Your experience never goes to waste. Just don’t have this idea that I am in this practice group, so I’ll do only this work. You are limiting your potential. You are doing no harm to the firm. The firm nevertheless will pay for your work and get paid. But for you to grow in practice and be proud of the work that you have done after 20 years of practice, you need to take every opportunity of working in different areas of law as you can get. That is the last one of the few lessons that I’ve learned in my life.

Lindsay: Those are good lessons. Those are really good lessons. So, to wrap up, I always love to ask this question, and that is outside of practicing law, what is one thing that you’re really enjoying right now?

Alishan: What I’m really enjoying right now?

Lindsay: Yes.

Alishan: I’m enjoying being in India. I’m really enjoying being in India, and because my work requires me to travel around the world, but seeing the firm group, seeing the practice stabilize, seeing the practice, seeing the… Now we have some name in India, so seeing the clients approach you on their own without your pitching for work, somebody calling you from some reference, which gives a sense of satisfaction that you have really worked. Sometimes the news comes that you have won a particular award or some of my partners have won a particular award because of independent work market research. That’s a joy. When you submit a nomination, of course you win. That’s also a pride, but the pure joy is when you haven’t even applied for and you have won an award because of word of mouth. The clients who are coming from good entities, invested by companies from US, Japan, Korea, and they say that we have been recommended your name and we want to come and talk to you, and we want to collaborate with you, that gives a pleasure and a deep sense of satisfaction.

Lindsay: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, this has really been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us, and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much to all of our listeners as well. We’ll be back next week with another guest. And in the meantime, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much.

Alishan: Thanks a lot, Lindsay. Thank you. Goodbye.

Innovating Legal Excellence: A Paradigm Shift in the Modern Law Firm

This week, we’re excited to bring you a guest blogger to Zen! Ilona Tkachenko is with PETERKA & PARTNERS, the ILN’s member firm in Ukraine. She is the Marketing Manager for Ukraine for the firm and brings us an excellent post on innovation for legal excellence, which is certainly something that she and her colleagues know something about – and she does my favorite thing, which is to offer practical advice for how to achieve what she’s talking about.

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In the ever-evolving landscape of the legal industry, where tradition and convention have long been seen as the foundations of practice, the integration of innovation has emerged as a game-changing force. The strategic implementation and development of innovation within a law firm are not just trends; they signify a paradigm shift that holds the potential to redefine legal excellence in the 21st century. But what exactly does innovation in the legal industry entail?

Embracing Innovation: The Need for Change

Historically, the legal field has been perceived as resistant to change, often preferring the comfort of familiar routines. However, the rapid pace of technological advancements, changing client expectations, and the demand for more efficient and cost-effective solutions have compelled law firms to reconsider their approach. This need for change has given birth to an era where innovation is not just an option but a necessity.

The Key Pillars of Innovative Transformation

At PETERKA & PARTNERS, we have recognized that the integration of innovation is a multi-faceted endeavour, and it is not always only about technological advancements. We have identified several key pillars that guide our way to embracing innovation:

Client-Centric Approach: Innovating means aligning with the evolving needs of clients. Our firm has implemented client portals, enhancing communication and transparency. Additionally, our use of predictive analytics helps us anticipate client needs, and enables us to provide proactive legal solutions.

Systematicity: Embracing innovation requires reshaping internal workflows into more systematic processes. This systematic approach promotes cross-functional collaboration and enables faster response times to legal challenges. It ensures that our team remains adaptable and responsive in an ever-changing legal environment.

Continuous Development: In an era of rapid change, embracing innovation involves a commitment to lifelong development. We keep our legal professionals updated on the latest technologies, trends, and best practices, fostering a culture of innovation.

Innovation in Practice: Real-Life Examples

At PETERKA & PARTNERS, we have witnessed the tangible impact of innovation in various facets of our practice:

Full integration. We offer our clients a unique product due to the full integration of all our offices. The clients may purchase and manage legal services in the entire CEE region as if it were only one jurisdiction.

Data-Driven Insights: By harnessing the power of data analytics, we’ve gained valuable insights into case outcomes and legal trends, allowing us to provide clients with evidence-based advice and predict potential challenges.

Changes to Organizational Culture: Fostering Innovation and Adaptability

In the ongoing quest to embrace innovation and adaptability, we recognize that changes to the organizational culture are vital. We believe that a dynamic and forward-thinking culture not only enhances the firm’s ability to innovate but also equips us to navigate the ever-evolving legal landscape effectively. Here, I would like to offer a couple of examples of issues you might face implementing innovation and how you can address them:

Change 1: Teamwork and High Involvement in the Innovation Process

In the words of Tidd and Bessant (2013), “Although each individual may only be able to develop limited, incremental innovations, the sum of these efforts can have far-reaching impacts.” Recognizing the transformative power of collective effort, a novel approach could be introduced to foster teamwork and high involvement in the innovation process.

Solution: To promote cross-border collaboration and enhance the involvement of the entire team, we propose something that we successfully practice at PETERKA & PARTNERS ourselves, staff exchanges among your offices or the jurisdictions you cover. Teams comprised of 3-5 employees will embark on quarterly business trips to selected offices. During those visits, they will immerse themselves fully in the new team, ideally culminating in the organization of mutual client events or the initiation of joint projects. Through these experiences, employees will exchange ideas, observe different working methods, expand their professional networks, and gain access to shared opportunities with the global partners.

Outcome: This initiative will cultivate a more collaborative atmosphere within the firm, actively engage the team in the innovation process, and encourage the free flow of ideas. By working closely with colleagues from other offices, employees will not only benefit from a broader perspective but also gain valuable insights into diverse work cultures.

Change 2: Ability to Adapt

As Bartone and Stine (2020) wisely noted, “In turbulent times, where change is inevitable, it makes sense to strengthen your ability to adapt.” In recognition of this wisdom, I suggest instituting an internal event series aimed at reinforcing adaptability.

Solution: We suggest implementing a monthly internal event called “Success Stories.” These events will feature distinguished practitioners from the legal market, including in-house lawyers, legal counsel, and representatives of state bodies. They will share their experiences, insights on overcoming challenges, and their remarkable ability to adapt in dynamic environments. These accomplished speakers will not only inspire but also educate your employees about resilience and adaptability.

Outcome: Through the “Success Stories” series, employees at all levels will gain a deeper understanding of the importance of learning from failures and setbacks. They will develop a sense of commitment and a readiness to face challenges head-on, even in stressful circumstances. This initiative will empower your team to embrace change with confidence, ultimately driving a firm’s success.

In conclusion, innovation and adaptability are the cornerstones of a thriving law firm in the modern era. These changes to the organizational culture at law firms signify the dedication to fostering a culture that encourages collaboration, innovation, and resilience among talented professionals. As we all continue to develop, these initiatives will fortify the firm’s position as a forward-thinking, client-focused legal powerhouse, prepared to meet the demands of today’s legal landscape.

The Road Ahead: Embracing Constant Evolution

While we have achieved remarkable progress in integrating innovation into our practice, we recognize that the journey is an ongoing one. The legal landscape will continue to evolve, presenting new challenges and opportunities. As the Marketing Manager of the Ukrainian office of PETERKA & PARTNERS, I am committed to ensuring that innovation remains at the forefront of our strategy. We are dedicated to fostering a culture where creativity and adaptability thrive, ensuring that we continue to deliver exceptional value to our clients in the most innovative ways possible.

In conclusion, the integration and development of innovation within a law firm are not merely buzzwords; they signify a seismic shift in the way legal services are provided. At PETERKA & PARTNERS we embrace this shift with open arms – utilizing technology, reshaping workflows, and prioritizing client needs to redefine legal excellence in the modern era. We are excited to lead the way into a future where innovation and legal expertise go hand in hand. When speaking of innovation in the legal industry, one first thinks of huge developments, technologies, start-ups, etc. But for a full-circle innovation process, it is enough to only make a slight modification that will lead to acceptance of, and understanding that, change is good.

Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast | Peter Fousert, PlasBossinade

Peter Fousert is an insolvency partner with PlasBossinade in the Netherlands, one of the ILN’s Dutch firms. In this episode, he discusses with Lindsay the challenges of the war on talent, the delayed insolvencies that pandemic measures have incurred, and his interest in how environmental issues and regulations will impact the legal industry and its clients.

You can listen to the podcast here, or we’ve provided a transcript of the highlights below.

Lindsay: Hello and welcome to the Law Firm Intelligence Podcast. I’m your host, Lindsay Griffiths, Executive Director of the International Lawyers Network. Our guest this week is Peter Fousert from PlasBossinade in Groningen, the Netherlands. Peter, welcome. We’re so happy to have you with us. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and the firm and your practice?

Peter: Hi, Lindsay. Thank you very much for inviting me. As you mentioned, my name is Peter Fousert. I’m a Netherlands based lawyer working for PlasBossinade as a partner there. My firm, PlasBossinade, isn’t, well an international oriented local law firm. We are based in the north of the Netherlands, proud to do so. We have lawyers and civil notaries in offices in Groningen, which is all the way north in the Netherlands, and a civil notary office in Rotterdam. As you may know, the main port of Holland, one of the biggest port in the world. We are a partner-run law firm and our main practice areas are M and A, commercial litigation, tax and finance solvency and restructuring, employment law and real estate, including the tax structuring of real estate.

We work for a lot of branches. Some important ones in our practice are shipping and ship building, industry and healthcare. We work for clients in the variety in size from very big and governmental organizations to small locally owned businesses. It’s a broad practice, basically.

Lindsay: That’s great. How about your practice in particular?

Peter: I’m mainly working in insolvency and everything that, well has to do with insolvency or companies in financial distress situations. I work as a bankruptcy trustee as well, for well almost half of my time.

Lindsay: That’s great.

Peter: So, I see both sides of the medal, so to speak.

Lindsay: That’s great. So, let’s dive into our questions. What would you say is your biggest challenge at the moment and how are you working to overcome that?

Peter: I think for a firm like our firm, a mid-size local-based law firm, our biggest challenge is the war on talent basically. We’re suffering, well the vortex of the Magic Circle firms in the Netherlands. And although we are working and living in a student town, it’s still hard to get the talent in in the way we want it. So, we’re always looking for new ways to find the right people for the right place, but that’s hard these days.

Lindsay: Yes, I would imagine that it is. I mean, all that we’re hearing in the US is that the Netherlands is one of the best places to work and to live. So, are you finding that you’re able to compete on a global scale in the Netherlands, but perhaps being in the north is more difficult than if you were in one of the more central or southern cities?

Peter: Well, I didn’t know. The Netherlands, well we are a very small country. If you compare it to some of the bigger countries or even some of the bigger cities, there are cities that have the size of the Netherlands. So, we’re a small country. We travel to Amsterdam, for example in an hour and a half, two hours. So, in my opinion, there’s not much difference between working from the north or working in Amsterdam. Still, it’s hard to explain to young people basically that the city we live in is a good place to live. It’s nice and green and there’s plenty of space around to do other things than work. I think that’s one of our main selling points to young people, the work life/balance, which is pretty good. But we were speaking, it was the last global ILN meeting where we were speaking about the war on talent and it’s a thing that we … I came across a lot of lawyers who are suffering with the same problems even from bigger firms or bigger countries.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. That’s true. I mean, I think it’s a global issue for sure. The generations are changing, so that’s not something that anyone is going to solve anytime soon, unfortunately.

Peter: I’m afraid so. I’m afraid you’re right.

Lindsay: Yes. So, can you talk to us a little bit about the current state of the market and what that means for you and your clients?

Peter: Well, for me personally in my practice area, I think we’re in the aftermath of a perfect storm maybe. It’s the pandemic combined with the consequences of the war in Ukraine. A lot of companies are suffering. I think in the next couple of months, there will be a lot of insolvencies and companies in financial problems, in dire straits basically. So that’s what we’re facing. Our Dutch government took some measures to save companies, but now we’re seeing the other side of those measures, and companies have to start paying their debts, have to start paying their taxes. It’s a busy period. And it’s ironic because in a way it’s sad for the companies that are suffering all those problems from … But for me as an insolvency practitioner, there’s a lot going on at the moment.

Lindsay: Absolutely. I had a similar conversation with one of our lawyers from London, and here in the US we didn’t take similar protections against a lot of bankruptcies that much of Europe took, so he said there were a lot of companies in Europe and the UK that didn’t fail that probably should have failed. So obviously it protected companies that needed to be protected, but at the same time there was this natural progression for some businesses that should have happened that didn’t happen and is now happening, which is what you’re seeing that we-

Peter: Yeah, I think it’s the same. Yes.

Lindsay: … in the US didn’t experience. Yes. So, I think It’s really an interesting time for what you’re going through as an insolvency lawyer. So that-

Peter: There’s a lot of companies in the gray area, sort of ghost companies that were tagged along by the protective measures, but there’s even companies that were relatively healthy that are suffering from high energy pricing, the rise in employment costs. And that, combined with the measures, well it’s massive.

Lindsay: And I’m sure the inflation as well. I mean, the inflation numbers that you’re seeing in Europe are just unbelievable.

Peter: Yes. Well back in the … I wasn’t born then, but I think it’s about early ’70s that were the same economic period at the moment.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. I would agree. I wasn’t born then either, but from what I’ve heard, it must have been very similar.

Peter: We see it mainly in retail where there’s a lot of people working, and that’s hard at the moment.

Lindsay: Absolutely. It’s interesting, because I had a conversation recently with my dad, who as you know is the previous executive director of the ILN, and he said he thinks it’s a shift in the way the market is doing business. So, we used to have a lot of retail stores that were in person, and now because the marketplace is shifting to being more online, we’ll see that what you’re doing for point of sale or what people want to see in person is more things like services, so nail salons, dry cleaners, those types of things. But you’re not going to see as much shopping. So, all shopping will really move online. I think that’s an interesting point. So, It’s more of a shift in what the marketplace is doing and less of a reaction to the overall economy. So, it’s what we’re moving towards as a full market.

Peter: Yes, I think you’re right. I think the recent circumstances have accelerated that in a way. So that’s what we see, is this shift came faster than it would have been without a pandemic or without the war going on.

Lindsay: Yes, absolutely, because people are forced to order online just by the nature of needing to be at home and because of the war in Ukraine. So that absolutely makes sense.

Peter: Yep. And we see a lot of shift in real estate as well. I mean, buildings like our own are used in another way than it used to be. So, in the real estate area, there will be a lot of changes as well. Yes.

Lindsay: Absolutely. It’s interesting because a lot of the real estate lawyers I’ve spoken to have said that commercial real estate remains hot, which I find very interesting. And I know in the US, it’s still both residential and commercial real estate are very hot right now too. So, I wonder how long that will continue, but It’s got to be for varying reasons. But yes, I agree with you. I think It’s shifted how they’re being used and for what, but that I think will change over the next 10 years.

Peter: Yes, yes. I think you’re right. Yep.

Lindsay: So, what would you say is the biggest area that’s related either to your practice or the legal industry in general that you’re curious about?

Peter: For me personally, I think it’s the way the environmental issues will impact on the legal industry. In the place where we are, north Holland, energy and transport is a big sector, and you see a lot of changes there. I think that’s a very vibrant thing to witness There’s a lot going on, a lot of development, there’s a lot of new technology going there. So, in my opinion, it will be environmental issues and the way we adapt to new rules and new laws that will be in place shortly. That’s a big thing, I guess in the next couple of years.

Lindsay: Yes, I agree. I think it’s really interesting because a lot of people are slow to adapt until they’re forced to, or especially in the legal industry, obviously clients lead the way. So, it’s whatever clients are really requiring of their law firms. So, I’m curious to see what changes will come about because we’re required to, but I think that’s another area where the pandemic has really forced us to make changes. People are traveling less, doing more Zoom meetings, more Teams meetings. So that’s already changed how much our carbon footprint has altered. Again, the real estate market I think is shifting in that way too. So, it is a really interesting field. I agree with you.

Peter: There’s a lot of other changes needed to infrastructure and to actually, well for example our Dutch electrical system can hardly cope with all the new ways we get our energy. So, in construction, in building, all of those sectors will be hugely influenced by this change, I guess.

Lindsay: Absolutely.

Peter: I think for me as a company will not … If you don’t adapt soon enough, I think that’s the new reason for insolvency.

Lindsay: Yes. So that I think is a great way for you to also be an advisor to your clients, to help point them in the direction of ways to avoid insolvency. Yes.

Peter: As I said, I’m working on both sides of the medal and advising on how to prevent financial distress. One of the things that will be colored in by ESG in the next couple of years, I’m sure about that. Yes.

Lindsay: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, switching gears, tell us something interesting about yourself that most people don’t know.

Peter: Well, that’s a hard question. That’s a hard question. I think there’s quite a lot of people who know me who know this, but I think if I hadn’t become a lawyer, I think I would be owning a two-star Michelin restaurant. I think that would have been my other career if I wasn’t an insolvency lawyer.

Lindsay: That’s fair.

Peter: My wife Rebecca always says I have an unhealthy relationship with food. But in my opinion, it’s a very healthy relationship and I enjoy it very much. And definitely the ILN meetings are always a good thing to go to because you always take care of the right place to go. I enjoy it very much.

Lindsay: Good, good. I’m glad to hear that. We do have some good ones coming up for our next meeting in a couple of weeks, so we’ll have to see what you think about those.

Peter: Well, I checked them out already.

Lindsay: Oh, good. I figured you had. So, what’s your favorite thing to cook?

Peter: Well, I think It’s more traditional, traditional French, French/Italian, Mediterranean style, as long as it matches with the right wine. Then it’s good.

Lindsay: Of course, of course. Who has been your biggest mentor over your career?

Peter: We have this system that if you start as a lawyer, you work under the wings of somebody who mentors you. In my case, I started working as a lawyer for a firm in the east of Holland, and there was somebody who was working there for about 10 years, and she taught me how to write basically, how to make legal arguments and how to build a legal argument. I think until today, I find she’s the one who influenced me the most in my legal career.

Lindsay: That’s wonderful. And writing is really an important skill. I mean, I think it’s often underestimated.

Peter: It is, yes. And nowadays, I try to work as a mentor for the people who start in my firm. That’s always one of the first thing I try to teach them how to structure an argument.

Lindsay: Yes.

Peter: How to structure a letter or a legal document or even an agreement. Drafting an agreement is about the same process as a legal argument. I think it’s underestimated in law school that the skill of writing is one of the most important things we as lawyers have as what we do all day.

Lindsay: Absolutely, absolutely. What would you say is something that most people misunderstand about your field of work?

Peter: Well, I think that’s not too difficult to answer because as I said, half my time I’m working as a bankruptcy trustee. I think the public opinion on bankruptcy trustees is that they want to earn as much money off the backs of the creditors. So, I’m always happy to explain people how it works, that there’s nothing that you stake. The bankruptcy trustee gets nothing because we’re not publicly appointed. Our fees are paid out of what we sell, and the purchase price of the goods is what we get our payment from. So that’s one of the big misunderstandings I like to clear out the way.

Lindsay: Yes. I’ve known a few bankruptcy trustees in my time. It’s interesting to read articles online about it and people really get very fired up. They really don’t understand how it works.

Peter: That’s true. I don’t know if that’s the same in other jurisdictions, but in the Netherlands I think it’s almost a sport to hold the bankruptcy trustee liable for almost everything, and it’s strange to see that you get used to it, coping with that.

Lindsay: I can understand because, and in your experience I’m sure it’s the same, that there’s a lot of emotions whenever there’s a bankruptcy, because it’s people’s jobs and there’s a lot of feelings that are involved. But of course, it’s not the bankruptcy trustee’s fault that this has happened and it’s your job to just move people through this process. But it’s really amazing how much they need this figure to blame.

Peter: Of course. But otherwise, I understand it, because I used to work in a lot of bigger healthcare insolvency cases, so I had to lay off a lot of people working in healthcare, and that goes with, it’s a consequence of the insolvency. You wind up the company and you lay off the employees, and that’s one of the things you have to do. But still, you have to do with compassion in a way. And on the other hand, there’s good employment … There’s insolvency schemes for employees in the Netherlands that will take care of the payment of the wages. So, it has a lot of impact, but the financial damages are not that big.

Lindsay: Right, of course, of course. So, what is the most important lesson that you’ve learned over your career?

Peter: That you as a lawyer, have the obligation to be curious. Always be curious, always dig deeper into a case and find the one threat you have to start pulling to find a solution. So, for me, that’s the most important lesson, always be curious, always ask for the why and how did that work, what happened? And always be receptive for those kinds of signals.

Lindsay: That’s great. I really like that. Can you tell me about a client that may have changed your practice?

Peter: Yes. It was a client who was referred to me by one of the other big firms in the northern Netherlands. They were working as a bankruptcy trustee in a certain bankruptcy. They produced a creditor who had a big environmental issue with the bankruptcy trustee and the trustee said, “Well I can’t solve it for you. If you refer you to PlasBossinade.” And that case was the entrance for me into a specific specialty area I’m working on a lot now, and that’s the combination of environmental law and insolvency law. The question, who is obliged to clean up the soil after you wind up a company, for example. So that’s a very specific area of practice, and that came to me by that one client. So, that was nice.

Lindsay: That’s great. What does being part of the ILN mean to you?

Peter: For my practice and for my firm, is important. In a way, you have a lot of lawyers on speed dial if you want. So, it’s very easy to reach out to your ILN counterparts all over the world. I very recently was in a complicated insolvency case, and it was very easy to reach out to the ILN office in London, the ILN office in Norway. And that’s the convenience of, to be able to do that easily is an extra for your clients and for us. So that’s a very good thing, and I really like the meetings, but that goes without staying, I guess.

Lindsay: I’m so glad to hear it. One final question as we wrap up. I always like to ask this of everybody. What is one thing outside of work that you’re really enjoying right now?

Peter: Well, it’s going to be autumn in the Netherlands, and I think the thing I like most in this time of year is I have this house with a garden and a nice fireplace, and to sit there with Rebecca and viewing our house and garden. So, I enjoy that the most at the moment this time of year.

Lindsay: Nice. I love that. Yes, that’s great. Well, thank you very much for joining us. This has been really great.

Peter: Thank you.

Lindsay: We will be back next week with our next guest. For all of our listeners, thank you so much for joining us as well. Please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. And thank you very much.

Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast | Diego D’Odorico, SYLS

Diego D’Odorico is a senior associate at ⁠Salaberren y López Sansón⁠, or SyLS, the ILN’s member firm for Argentina. In this episode, he and Lindsay discuss the regionalization happening with Argentine businesses that led the firm to open a new office in Uruguay in order to better serve their clients, the unique moment that Argentina is in, and what Diego has learned from his clients and mentors.

You can listen to the podcast here, or we’ve provided a transcript of the highlights below.

Lindsay: Hello, and welcome to the Law Firm Intelligence Podcast. I’m your host, Lindsay Griffiths, Executive Director of the International Lawyers Network. Our guest this week is Diego D’Odorico from Salaberren y López Sansón in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Diego, welcome. We’re so happy to have you on the podcast this week. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and the firm and your practice?

Diego: Hi Lindsay, and thanks very much for having me. Well, I’m a senior associate at Salaberren y López Sansón, or SyLS, as we like to call it. And I’m basically involved in all aspects of the firm’s general corporate practice, M&A, and also wealth planning out, with main focus on commercial contracts, mergers and acquisitions. And also, my practice involves legal counseling to very and ultra-high net worth individuals, both domestic and foreign, and business planning in Argentina and the Latin America region.

Lindsay: Great, that’s great. So, what would you say is your biggest challenge at the moment, and how are you working to overcome that?

Diego: Well, several challenges come to my mind at the moment, but if I had to choose one, I would say facing the challenges working in Argentina and the region represent, it is something that keep you creative as to find the best ways to provide intelligent solutions to the day-to-day issues that our clients bring to us. And for instance, now Argentina is facing a complex moment both politically and socially, but that always brings interesting opportunities for developing businesses and recalculating our own strategies in order to give a good service for our clients. Most of our local business is now becoming regionalized and following this challenging path.

We have just opened a new office in Uruguay, which is SyLS Ferrari, which will be the first binational firm to provide legal, tax accounting and notary service to clients conducting their business in Uruguay. So, this is a major milestone for us since we founded the original SyLS in Argentina almost 15 years ago. And for this new venture, we have joined our good friend, Eduardo Ferrari, who is one of the most prestigious professionals in Uruguay. He’s a lawyer and also a notary public, with whom we have worked as a team for many years, assisting several of our clients. And this is a very, very challenging project that combines sales international experience, work processes, service quality and responsiveness, with Eduardo’s extensive knowledge, experience, trust, and his direct and personal approach. And he will lead a team of excellent professionals in various areas.

Lindsay: That’s great. And it sounds like a really exciting moment for the firm, and a great time to be a lawyer too, because anytime there is obviously expansion into a new market, but also challenges within a region, there’s obviously a lot of legal work to be done.

Diego: That’s right. Complex matters both locally and regionally and globally arise every day. And well, we noticed that our clients need to feel that they can rely in either legal counsels, both in terms of responsiveness and the quality of the responses. And that brings us to strengthen our capacity to be creative and to develop new strategies for getting our work done.

Lindsay: Absolutely. So, speaking of your clients, what would you say is the current state of the market and what does that mean for your clients? You’ve spoken a little bit about that already from a regional perspective, but what would you say more broadly as the state of the market?

Diego: Well, from a local perspective, we’re facing several issues regarding Argentina’s current situation, so lots of situations that require advice from a normative perspective, and changes that are happening from both the normative and the political area. That’s quite a day-to-day situation. And also, that situation leads to many Argentine residents and companies start to regionalize their businesses.

This has been a milestone since the last years, and that’s why most of Argentine entrepreneurs and also companies start to think out of the Argentine box and start to have base in Uruguay, our next neighbor, and regionalize their activities. That’s what I would say is the most trending situation regarding our market. And our clients’ expectations is to have certainty regarding how regulations will impact their business and how to find creative solutions to this wide, wide scenario of legislation, and also day-to-day situations regarding politics and the way of how bureaucracies work in our countries.

Lindsay: And I would imagine that given that it is a fluid situation, it’s difficult to give your clients certainty. But if they can feel that they have a good solid counselor in their law firm that they’re working with, that’s at least the level of certainty that you can give them, if you can’t give them certainty in the situation.

Diego: Well, it is indeed quite tough to give solid advice in such a changing scenario, but as you said, they feel comfortable with having a solid team behind which they can rely on. And that’s great for us, because they reinforce their trust in us on a day-to-day basis. And we have to be up to that by finding the most appropriate solutions and bringing that confidence that the client requires.

Lindsay: That’s great. So, what would you say is the biggest area related to either your practice or the legal industry, that you’re curious about?

Diego: Well, traditionally, I’ve been an all-field player in the corporate and M&A practice. And I have advised and represented a number of major companies and companies’ owners and executives in several industries with regards to their several daily corporate matters. But I would say that now, I’m more focused on everything related to wealth planning, which is … I wouldn’t say a new area in our firm, but definitely an area that has become stronger in the last five years. And we’re working very hard to develop it with some of my colleagues. Definitely, the regional scenario is conducive to developing this kind of area due to our clients’ situations, both personal and professional or business situation. So, there are several interesting things in that area that we’re now exploring and working on along with our clients, such as incorporating trusts, administrating trust funds, designing the better corporate structures for families to protect their wealth. That’s mostly what I’m more focused on nowadays.

Lindsay: That’s great. So changing gears a little bit, can you tell us something interesting about yourself that most people don’t know?

Diego: Sure. Well, I always thought that being a lawyer is kind of an exhausting thing. And you need an escape valve in order to keep your mind sane and aligned. So having other activities to match your personalities is always important. I like to play the guitar and I have played guitar since I was a kid, playing with my friends in a band. Though I must say that in the recent years, due to the complications of life itself, it is becoming tougher to find the right moment to develop that hobby. But it’s a very important thing for me, because it connects me with something very personal and internal, and quite different to the day-to-day work also. As well as practicing some sports such as biking, which I like a lot, and try to keep my weekly 40K mark in order to keep in form.

Lindsay: That’s great. We actually have several ILN members who are musicals, and I always joke that we need to have some sort of ILN band put together at some point and get everybody to play together. I think that would be fun.

Diego: That sounds great. And actually, I was thinking a lot about jumping into the scenario on the last Philly conference, which was great, but I got lost in the bar, so you didn’t have a chance or the privilege to see me in action.

Lindsay: Oh, I missed it. Yes, I’ll have to send out an email and see who we can get together to play together. We actually had a former ILN lawyer, who their law firm used to … they had a battle of the bands as part of their intellectual property practice. And he actually left the practice of law to do music full time.

Diego: That’s great. And again, it is very important to have these complementary activities in order to keep you healthy, both physically and mentally. So, count me in for the ILN band.

Lindsay: Excellent, excellent. Okay, so who has been your biggest mentor over your career?

Diego: Well, lots of persons come to my mind when I think of mentors, but I would say in the first place, my father would be a big mentor for me. Though he’s not a lawyer, he is in the real estate business. But from a very young age, I remember him teaching me things both directly and indirectly regarding how to deal with people, how to understand businesses, how to think of solutions in an always changing and complex scenario. And he did that always with great love. So that would be the number one mentor for me.

And professionally, I cannot forget my colleagues, Rafael Salaberren, Juan Manuel Campos, Sebastian Lopez Sansón. All of them are partners of sales, who from day one, have always been supportive with me and very generously taught me everything they could. So, they’re great mentors and continue to be nowadays. And I would also say that great mentors are the clients, and especially the tough ones, because they also teach you lots of things indirectly. And it’s up to you to get from those experiences and knowledge which you can capitalize positively for the future.

I always try to tell my juniors and paralegals that they keep in mind the importance of rescuing the tough things of a deal, or even the daily things of our practice, especially in these first years of their careers in which there is a mixture of both enthusiasm and also frustration and anxieties, and remembering that you can become stronger by acknowledging the tough things from the day-to-day practice. And using them in your favor for future matters is crucial. So I would say that a third big mentor for me are those clients, especially those ones who considered to be tough. But by the end of the day, I’m grateful for having those tough situations.

Lindsay: That’s very true. There’s a lot of truth to that. Has there been a particular client that you feel has changed your practice?

Diego: Yes, a lot. I will not give names, but-

Lindsay: Of course.

Diego: … first one that comes to my mind, it’s a large client related to the pharma industry, which helped me to understand lots of verticals involved in that business and in businesses in general, because that put me in the place of having to draft contracts, deal with their clients, deal with their personnel, facing new situations every day of various natures. And it was and it continues to be very formative for me, because it’s a kind of Pandora’s box. Every day, this client surprises me with something new, something in a good way, some other times in not a good way. But again, even in those times in which the surprises are not that great, there is always something you can get from that situation.

Lindsay: That’s great. So, what do most people misunderstand about your field of work?

Diego: Well, I would say that though we are very grateful with our clients, it is usually misunderstood the amount of time and energy and commitment involved in doing a good job and delivering a good product. This might sound simple, but these are very important factors that has to be not only with the professional skills, but also with the personal skills. And sometimes clients may not notice that. And it’s very important for us to keep committed to this day-to-day situation of bettering ourselves in what we do and also in the products we deliver. So again, we are very grateful with our clients. They do recognize all our efforts, but it is easy in the day-to-day frenzy not to recognize all this time, energy and commitment involved.

Lindsay: Yes, I think that’s absolutely true. And so along the same lines, what would be the most important lesson that you’ve learned over the course of your career so far?

Diego: Well, lots of lessons, but I would say firstly, the importance of relying on a solid team, both professionally and in the human dimension. We must not forget that we share lots of hours in our offices or nowadays via digital platforms with our colleagues, and it’s kind of a second family. So having a great group to work with is crucial to understand each other, to share a similar approach to the professional matters and the personal matters regarding values. This is crucial, and I’m very lucky to say that I’m in a team of such people. It makes things much easier, definitely, because behind every daily situation, both professional and personal, even those minor situations, there is an opportunity to learn something new. And I am grateful for learning everyday new things with these people.

Lindsay: That is a huge lesson, absolutely. And so, what does being part of the ILN mean to you?

Diego: Well, it means having the chance of being part of a group of people that prove to be excellent, both in a professional and in a human sense. It is also a great way to generate business opportunities. That has been proved a long time. And what surprised me the most is that once you get the face-to-face contact with the ILN members, it might sound a bit cliche or naive, but it feels like a family. And as the events [inaudible 00:22:22], it is in those meetings where lawyers become friends, they actually become friends. And it is a pleasure to be part of such a network, to be completely frank. Firstly, we were skeptic about joining a professionals’ network, but it proved to be, and it continues to prove to be great over time.

Lindsay: I’m so glad to hear that. So, wrapping up, I always like to ask this question. What is something that you are enjoying right now that has nothing to do with work?

Diego: Yes, definitely. I am enjoying lying on my couch after facing a very intense move from one apartment to the other. It was a process of, I would say, one or two months. And as we were discussing prior to recording this podcast, it is quite a stressful situation, but in this case, it was for good. And I’m really enjoying now the comfort of being established in my new place and just leaving the simple things such as, again, sitting in my couch, enjoying a good movie, and sleeping a good nap, or inviting friends to have dinner.

Lindsay: That’s wonderful. Yes, the rewards are great. The stress is also great, but once you’re done, it’s a really rewarding experience. Absolutely. I’m so glad to hear that you’re enjoying your new home.

Diego: Thanks very much, Lindsay.

Lindsay: Well, thank you very much, Diego. I really appreciate you being here this week. And to all of our listeners, we’ll be back next week with our next guest. And in the meantime, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Ratings really do help us establish our podcast. And so, thank you so much, Diego. We’ll be back next week.

Diego: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. It was my pleasure.

Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast | Tiago Dias José, MGRALaw Firm

Tiago Dias José is a partner at ⁠MGRA & Associados⁠ in Lisbon, Portugal, focusing on public law. In this episode, he and Lindsay discuss the legal trends in Portugal, particularly in real estate and sustainability, and why Portugal is such a favorable place to do business.

You can listen to the podcast here, or we’ve provided a transcript of the highlights below.

Lindsay: Hello and welcome to the Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast. I’m your host Lindsay Griffiths, Executive Director of the International Lawyers Network. Our guest this week is a returning guest, we’re really happy to have him with us, Tiago Diaz Jose from MGRA in Lisbon, Portugal. Tiago, welcome. We’re really glad to have you back with us. Why don’t you take a couple minutes to introduce yourself and your firm and your practice.

Tiago: Hi Lindsay. It’s a pleasure to be back and to chat again with you. As a returning guest, I can introduce again the practice of our office. We are a boutique law firm based in Lisbon. We have a few offices around Portugal, and it is known since many years now that we have a few partnerships in Portuguese-speaking countries where we also work. As a boutique law firm, we have a few specialized divisions to cover the main issues of our clients, say, industry, of course, corporate tax and administrative law and litigation. Our corporation also has a small branch that does finance and banking with very specialized people.

We have a team for IP. Portugal has become an entry country for Europe on IP registration and development of new patents and new ideas as we became quite a hub for entrepreneurs and inventors, especially linked to new technologies. My area of practice is public law, which means that my team deals with several aspects of the relationship with the state. We have since, for many years now, a very big part of our work is relative to the public transport system in the Lisbon metropolitan area. So, it’s linked to technology and to updating technology and to public [inaudible 00:02:45] and to make all the, say the partners and the operators who work together to put the system each day in better shape for client service. But we also work with construction licensing, real estate, and what we have seen from time to time is a hype in interest, and we have seen in the last years that it has become a big concern, sustainability and energy production.

Energy production meaning license for new energy systems, relationship with the state in order to guarantee that the energy produced is welcome and distributed through the national grid system, and also that the production meets the needs, either for industry and business and new developments, and of course, for housing, but that we have sorted out for many years. It has become quite interesting to understand that the Portuguese and energy production become transformed from being quite coal based and also in need of importation in, say 10 years, to a country that produces almost all of its energy needs, and like 80% of the energy consumed is from renewable energies, which means we have seen huge investments and huge commitment from the state and from the privates that invest in these systems to put this together. And the results are serious as businesses and as bringing Portugal to be a sustainable country in terms of energy.

I think the next focus of concern and investment and development will be water production, because we are a country in the south of Europe, and we know that things are not going for the better with the rain and the lack of water and forest fires. We have seen this happening in the last 20 years, droughts and lack of supply on water. It has not been happening and it’s not a huge concern currently in Portugal, but it is, in our neighbors in Spain and Italy and so on. And we know that it’ll become a problem here, so solutions are being developed and put on the table to develop and to study what we can do and how we can get better on these. And that means new investment, new finance, new contracts, new insurance, so on and so on.

As for Portugal and as for our office, one of the areas that has also been of our interest and we have developed, we started developing in the legislative perspective, collaborating with a regulator, is that Portugal has granted a license for a spaceport in Azores, and we helped design the new space law, the Portuguese space law, of course, comparing with the US space law with China space law, and with a few EU legislation that is already in place. And I really consider, this is something we have discussed with Anacon, the regulator, and a few other interested parties on these, that these regulation, these widespread regulation should be brought together.

We should try, or it should be a concern to bring together the legislation on these issues, especially on environment safety and insurance, where there is a huge potential for new business and to develop a common platform that would prevent the operators and the developers and the companies to stick to one regulation and then try to apply that to everyone, and the legislation doesn’t comply with all the demands. And it will affect us. Once this exploration starts moving forward, it’ll affect everyone in case of an accident, or something goes wrong. And if we don’t take care of that in a regulator’s perspective, to have it in a common ground, it’ll be very hard to, them to either to find liability, but in an earlier stage, it makes it very difficult to prevent the risks.

And that, I think is… It’s an interesting area and it should be a concern.

Lindsay: Absolutely. Yes. It’s one of those things where it’s easier to start with the regulations now before something happens rather than to go back and try and legislate it once something has already,

Tiago: Once we already had a problem.

Lindsay: Right, exactly. All of that is really fascinating. And so, it sounds like Portugal is really on the cutting edge when it comes to sustainability and being very forward-thinking, especially having the benefit of what’s happening with your neighbors in Spain and Italy, as you say, with the forest fires. We’re seeing that here in the US with what’s just happened in Hawaii, which is really-

Tiago: Canada.

Lindsay: And Canada, of course.

Tiago: I’ve seen yesterday on the news, the fires in Canada are burning for nine months now.

Lindsay: Yes.

Tiago: It’s amazing. They have to take a whole city to prevent people from getting hurt. It’s really impressive. Yes, Portugal is, as you said, on a cutting-edge time, but we also… Well, it’s noticeable, also on the demand and the interest that we see at the office from tourists, of course, but also from foreigners, US citizens and companies, and some northern Europeans and some other locations like Asia and so on, either from people that discovered Portugal and understand that it’s safe place. The climate is very good. We have political stability; we have been the same country for a thousand years or 900 years. Tax-wise, we are not a paradise, but we are quite attractive, and the estate planning here makes a lot of sense. And for families, education in Portugal and the health system and so on works pretty well, and it’s not that expensive. And we have seen in the last 15 years excellent value on real estate.

We really see that the long-term value can be held or even increased, and the demand has been huge. We have had lots of new clients, lots of old clients coming back, investing in Portugal, developing not only housing, but tourism, infrastructures, dams, infrastructure to produce energy like solar plants and wind plants. A lot of interest from companies that already had the know-how from France, from Israel, even from the US. And Yes, we are seeing, the economy is developing quite well. I was reading today on the news that Portugal is one of the only three countries in the EU where the economy grew this year already in the first semester. So Yes, we are having a good time now, and we see that. We see that with new clients, with new interests, and we even had to rearrange a bit to have more people in the office to cope with the demand and to have more focused teams on real estate and on licensings and on industrial projects and so on. We noticed that.

Lindsay: So that being said then, what do you think is the biggest challenge that you’re facing at the moment?

Tiago: In Portugal or at the office?

Lindsay: Let’s say at the office.

Tiago: At the office, when times are good, the challenges are accepted with joy.

Lindsay: Of course.

Tiago: Especially because when the thing is, you have to reorganize to have bigger teams, to have more expertise, and to cope with the client’s demands, it’s easier than to think, okay, we have to do cuts or this business is not going well, so we have to change the direction, and we are not seeing that. It’s the opposite. We are seeing that we are being challenged to do more and to do better. And to do better is very important because the challenge with new clients, especially with foreign clients, is that we get people with newer perspectives and new approaches to the problems, which means that we get new ideas, we get to think about new solutions and new ideas, and it brings us better perspectives, and we develop with the clients, we develop with the new ideas, we develop with studying more, and with bringing newer people to the teams. And the challenges are, as usual.

I think we ended the last conversation on this topic. The thing is, people. So, the challenge is always to find good people and to get along with good people, and to motivate the teams to cope with the demands. That’s it.

Lindsay: Yes, that absolutely makes sense. So, what would you say then, do you think the market is going to look like and the firm is going to look like maybe in the next two years? I hate to look too far in the future because I think we really don’t know what’s going to happen, but maybe in the next couple of years.

Tiago: Well, our firm is already 20 years, 19 years now. So, we have seen ups and downs and new locations and new ideas and so on. And we know that things can be seen in short periods of, like a chart, or you can see it in a longer term, which is the perspective I like the most, because in a longer term, you see more stability than ups and downs. And you can drive the office and you can drive the teams for steadier work and to keep progressing, even though you say, okay, the next six months, whether there are elections or there’s something that doesn’t go well, or you are, okay, you have one and a half months in the summer where everyone is lying at the beach. But okay, you know that in the end of that, come September, you’ll return to the activity, you’ll have the demand again, and you have to motivate people to keep reading, studying, talking to each other, writing a few articles for the team and for the office to keep developing, even though you may not be multiplying the business every month.

But you know that when the time comes, you have everything ready for it. And the time comes, it’s just a matter of looking at the trend, seeing what the areas are, and developing it. I think that in the next two years, it is quite safe to say that real estate energy and, as usual, tax will be the major areas on development. Real estate, we already see. Tax is everywhere, so you cannot go around anywhere in the world. It is what it is. And the energy sustainability, we must focus on these, and it’s a key concern for all economies. So, it’s something that we have to keep thinking about.

And for a law firm, it means a lot of work on real estate because it depends on having ground to put the facilities in. On having huge transformations, if you are talking about hydro on dams or even on producing wind-based energy on the sea or anywhere, it means a huge transformation in the landscape, and that means also that you have to take care about environment and safety and so on. And then it’s also the part of the insurances and the connection to the state, meaning licensings and connecting to the grids and so on, and prices on energy, which come from European regulation and so on. So, there is a massive work when we talk about energy. Either, we started thinking about energy, I don’t know, in 2008 on oil and gas, and now we are only thinking about solar and electricity from water, clean energy, which is a huge transformation, but it also means huge investments.

These investments are not, well, they are probably not so huge as oil and gas on platform rigs and so on, but they are huge. And they mean huge transformations also on environment. So, we also have to take care about that. So, I think these are the major points to be developed, and that will keep the work interesting, let’s say. And then of course, we always have the families and the estate planning and the running business on institutions that we go along with and that we have as clients for many years.

Lindsay: Absolutely. You talked a lot about sustainability from the client perspective, which I think is really important because that’s what’s going to drive what’s happening in the environment around us. But I’m curious about it from the perspective of law firms themselves. Do you think that law firms also need to be looking at their own ESG goals and being more sustainable themselves?

Tiago: Surely, I do think so. And I think the newer generations are more aware of that and are more willing to stop using paper, to use less energy, to work more from home, and not to run the car to the office and then run back and so on. I think they’re more focused on that, and it is easier to older lawyers that need the paper and need to print everything, and they want to have the files in front of them and read things, read it on paper, and so on. So, I think that first step will become the generation gap. We are seeing it happening. In my case, I almost don’t use paper, and I’m not the youngest guy at the office, of course, because I’ve been there for many years.

But what I see is that younger lawyers, the younger generations tend to do it easier. But I think that, and what we see here is that that concern comes along or is a bit enforced also on the buildings that we use and the machinery, the energy consumption. But in Portugal, that’s being also a bit enforced by the state, meaning that if you have the office or a house with a lower energy efficiency evaluation, you have higher taxes and you are not forced, but you are invited to upgrade it, to have solar panels, to use less energy, to make it more efficient, to change the windows, to have better insulation, to use less the air conditioning, or use a better performance air conditioning.

And that forces the users, and also the law firms to think about it a bit better or a bit deeper, let’s say. But I think so, Yes. Although I don’t think lawyers are, or law firms are the concern on pollution. Of course, we use paper, but not much more than that. It’s our lives. It’s the way we think about, okay, should I go to the office every day? Do I need the air conditioning from 7:00 to 7:00? Do I need to print everything? It’s more individual than, we are not using vessels and we are not burning energy to work. Well, we are, but not directly.

Lindsay: Right. Not in the same way as some of the bigger corporations are.

Tiago: Yes.

Lindsay: Yes. So, what would you say is the biggest area that’s related to either the practice of law or your industry in particular that you’re curious about at the moment?

Tiago: Real estate in Portugal has been developing in so many different ways. On energy production, on tourism, on industry, on private clients and housing. The demand is quite high. The solutions in Portugal are quite good. The regulation is quite accurate, and focused on clients, on the market, let’s say. Also, because it represents a big revenue for the state in tax, as there are many, many operations. That 2.1 area, I would say, one area that has been developing a lot and that we are quite interested in is real estate and that we have been working a lot with. Then the other areas are more things that we like to do and that… Well, the part of the work with public transports, it’s also quite important, and it’s quite interesting, because it gives us many new ideas and many new outputs of our work because we take care of public [inaudible 00:25:36], we talk with the developers of the technology, we talk with the operators of the transports, with the public authorities that organize and are the concessioners of the public transport grid.

And you have this IP of the flow and the need to bring everything together to serve a huge population for a million people, which I wouldn’t say isn’t that much of a challenge, because my team is very used to doing that. We have been doing this since 2010. But it’s really interesting, and it really motivates me. Even new lawyers that come to the team, they’re really amazed with, wow. The people that come along and say, “Okay, I enter the underground, I put the ticket in, and what’s everything behind this?” And that’s quite interesting.

Lindsay: That’s really cool. That must be fun work.

Tiago: Yes.

Lindsay: So, wrapping up, I always like to ask this question. What is something that has nothing to do with work that you’re really enjoying right now?

Tiago: Doing this in August, its reading, family, and going to the beach.

Lindsay: That’s a great answer. I was thinking about it recently, and I realized that sports teams have their off season, and I don’t see why professionals don’t get their off season too. So, I think this is the off season for legal professionals. So, I think that’s really important.

Tiago: Yes, but we noticed that a lot in Europe. August is, it’s not a dead month, but it’s very calm, a lot of people on holidays, and it’s really the time to enjoy a bit of relaxation, keep breathing, keep thinking about the subjects, write a few notes for yourself, speak to nice people, as we are doing, have good ideas, and rest a bit. Yes.

Lindsay: Right, and then September really kicks off. Yes, exactly, exactly. Do a little vacation, maybe vacation in July, but also recuperate a little bit, and then it really kicks off in September again.

Tiago: Yes.

Lindsay: Yes. Well, Tiago, thank you so much, I really appreciate you doing this and talking with us. This has been a really interesting conversation, and thank you so much to all of our listeners for tuning in. We’ll be back next week with another guest, and in the meantime, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much.

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