Amanda Schneider is the Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer for Epstein Becker Green, a national super boutique in the US, and the ILN’s member firm for New York and Washington, DC as well as its founding member firm. In this episode, Amanda and Lindsay delve into misconceptions that still exist about marketing professionals, post-pandemic challenges, and using technology as a tool.
You can listen to the podcast here, or we’ve provided a transcript of the highlights below.
Lindsay: Hello and welcome to the Law Firm ILN-telligence Podcast. I’m your host, Lindsay Griffiths, executive director of the International Lawyers Network, and our guest this week is Amanda Schneider with Epstein Becker & Green. Amanda, we’re so happy to have you with us. Thanks for joining us. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your role and your firm and what you do there?
Amanda: Great. And thank you for having me on the podcast today. So, as you said, I’m Amanda Schneider. I’m the chief marketing and business development officer for Epstein Becker Green. I have been in the chief capacity with the firm for 14 years, and we are a super boutique firm.
We’re a national healthcare, labor, and litigation firm. We have 21 offices, and we’ve had a long-standing relationship with the ILN. My role is to oversee all of the marketing, business development, and communications functions for the firm, act as a brand ambassador, and make sure that we are meeting the needs of our clients and attorneys.
Lindsay: That is quite a big job you’ve got there.
Amanda: It’s a great job. It’s a lot of fun.
Lindsay: Definitely. Definitely. So, what would you say is your biggest challenge at the moment?
Amanda: I think the biggest challenge for most chief marketing and BD officers is really when you’re working at a law firm, you’re working for many people, and it’s constantly prioritizing the requests and demands of the firm and ensuring that with our marketing and business development efforts, we really are meeting the firm’s strategic needs so that we’re putting our resources where we have the most opportunity for growth and development. And that can be challenging at times.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, what do you think are the challenges that are facing the legal profession today, and how are those challenges being addressed?
Amanda: Well, it’s really been interesting as we sit in post-pandemic times, and all firms are recalibrating to a new work style, and they’re really looking at their cultures and thinking about what their culture is and how we can all work together in a hybrid way to best meet the needs of our clients, and also to make sure that firms are providing the mentorship and development that’s needed for all levels of talent within the firm to make sure that our professionals are really gaining the benefits that they should get out of working at Epstein Becker Green and that they’re best positioned to serve our clients.
So, I think all firms are really right now looking at their culture, thinking about ways that you best work together. There’s lots of new technology to be considered as well in legal, and you’re constantly evolving to meet the needs of your clients as their needs are always changing.
Lindsay: Absolutely. You mentioned technology, and I know technology has really changed the practice of law in recent years, and I’m wondering how have you seen that happen.
Amanda: Well, I think that all firms are looking at artificial intelligence and how that’s impacting work products and how you can use AI in a way that doesn’t… that protects the privacy of your clients and… but allows you to reap the benefits of that technology. I think firms are still working through that.
Some firms are building their own AI within their firms’ vehicles for that, but that’s usually at the larger AM law firms. But I think just technology generally in the way that attorneys do research and the way that the marketing and business development teams can have information at their fingertips, and all of that information really speeds up the way that you can deliver work product both inside the firm and for clients.
So, it’s really using the technology in a way that makes sense but still having the intellectual capital of the professionals who were hired to interpret that information for clients. In our own team, we use technology as a tool, but we still have the judgment and add our own professional skills to whatever work product we’re producing. So, you can’t just rely on technology. It’s really the partnership that you have with it to develop the best work product possible.
Lindsay: Absolutely. I think something that we’ve talked a lot about is that the idea is you need to come at it with what are your goals as a firm and how do you want to achieve those. Sometimes, that is using technology, and sometimes, that is how do you develop better practices as an organization, as a marketing team. And as you say, you have a really good team behind you, and so there may be other methods you can use that have nothing to do with technology at all. So, it depends on what your goals are, and then you develop the behind those goals.
Amanda: Absolutely.
Lindsay: So, can you tell me something that you’re curious about related to your area of expertise at the moment?
Amanda: I’m always curious about ways to build a really high morale in my team culture and to make my professionals work at their best. I have an interest in leadership development and really working with team members to develop their skill sets so that they can provide the most value to the firm but also so that they are continually growing.
So, I do a lot of… I’m always listening to leadership podcasts. I’m always reading books about team dynamics and how you can get the best out of your team and also be a strong leader. So, it’s an interest of mine, and it will always be my passion to develop a strong team and be the best leader that I can be.
Lindsay: That’s really wonderful. And I think that’s really important too. Is there somebody that you look to for inspiration for that?
Amanda: Well, I’ve had many mentors in my own career that I have really looked up to. There are several people in my own firm that I study their leadership style. Jim Flynn is our managing director, and he’s an excellent leader, and I’m always observing his behavior. But even in my past positions, I’ve had many role models, and you take a little bit from each person, and then you decide what your own style is.
And, of course, we’ve all had experiences in a negative way with people, and that’s influenced us in a way that we don’t want to be that sort of leader. So, it’s interesting at this point in my career that I’m able to really think about it quite a bit, and I hope that I’m able to use that inspiration in my leadership style.
Lindsay: That’s great. That’s great. You’re the CMO and business development manager for your firm. I think legal marketing has changed tremendously. Business development has changed tremendously over the past 20 years in the legal industry. What do you think is something that people misunderstand about even now?
Amanda: I think how complicated it is. When I was recently doing a training with a group of our partners, we were talking about all of the metrics that we look at for our efforts, for we do a lot of digital marketing at our firm and really study every click, every view. We’re looking at topics that resonate with our target audiences.
And I think understanding all of the technologies that a marketing and BD team are managing now and to get… The email that went out looks very simple. There were three pieces of technology that played into that, and we’re looking at all of the metrics around everything that we’re doing. So, I think really not understanding the complexities and also the skillsets that you need now in these departments have to be very sophisticated. We are business people, and we partner with our attorneys on everything in a very sophisticated way. So, I think that’s the biggest misconception.
Lindsay: I would agree. And I think it’s interesting you say about how simple the emails look. And I think too when you send something like that out, and you get all of those pieces of data that come back with it, how actionable all of those things are and how you as a department are then taking those pieces of data and using them to make business decisions that influence what the lawyers are doing and the ability to bring in clients from those just what an email goes out, let alone all of the other activities that the firm is doing. It’s not just that email, but that’s an example. So, I think that’s a really interesting point.
Amanda: And we are very careful to protect ourselves. Obviously, we follow the highest privacy standards for… in our metrics and in our communications, but what we really are the most interested in is what topics resonate with our clients so that we can continue to provide information to them in those areas.
Obviously, those are their business challenges, and so it’s been great to be able to go back to an attorney and say, “This topic receives the most interest. We need to do more development of this in our thought leadership and be really smart about the information that we’re putting out into the world.”
Lindsay: Absolutely. As opposed to just throwing it at the wall and hoping something sticks.
Amanda: Yes.
Lindsay: So, tell me, what’s the most important lesson you’ve learned over your career so far?
Amanda: To constantly be evolving and that you’re really never done. And I always tell my team, “Perfect’s the enemy of progress.” We work in such a fast manner, and we have so many different that it’s important to be able to move things along while always constantly tweaking what we’re doing to make sure that we are evolving with technology and the needs of our clients, which are our attorneys and the firm and just knowing that you are never done. But it’s great for the intellectually curious because that’s what keeps me engaged in what I do.
And if I were done, that wouldn’t be extremely interesting. So, we’re always looking to improve what we’re putting out there and studying other industries, not just legal, and looking at what they do because you don’t want to get stuck in the box of only looking at the legal industry. We’re in the business of solving client problems, and there are other professional services companies that do that, and it’s important to study what they do.
Lindsay: Absolutely, absolutely. So, switching gears a little bit. Can you tell us something interesting about yourself that most people don’t know?
Amanda: Wow. Well, I’ve had… when I was in my earlier days, I was more adventurous in spirit, and I did work on a dude ranch for a while as… out in Colorado as a wrangler, working with the horses and working with people and took a little bit of a break to do that when I was in college. But yes, I love to travel, love new experiences, and have tried to really take advantage of every opportunity to do things that might be a little outside of the norm in the world where we live in the legal industry.
Lindsay: That is very cool.
Amanda: Keeps you interesting.
Lindsay: Absolutely. That’s very cool. What is one place that you haven’t been and still really would love to go?
Amanda: Oh, I have such a long list of places I want to go. I think that the next trip is to Germany to Bavaria. My husband’s family has origins there, and we’d really like to visit. I have two children, and we’re trying to get them to a long list of places before they leave your house.
What about you? What’s your place? Where…
Lindsay: I know. I also have a dream list for sure. I think probably my… I mean, the next country that I haven’t been to that I’m going to is Finland.
Amanda: Oh, wonderful.
Lindsay: That’s business. But yes, I think a good question. Probably Iceland. I’d really love to go to Iceland.
Amanda: Yes.
Lindsay: And Alaska is a real… My grandfather-
Amanda: Alaska is on my list.
Lindsay: Yes. My grandfather always really wanted to get there, and he never did. So that’s on my list to go up there and take some time and go. Yes, so I’d really love to do that. Is there a lawyer at either Epstein Becker or another firm that really changed the way that you approach your day-to-day business?
Amanda: It was someone from the past. When I first came to the firm, I worked with Doug Hastings, who was the chair of our firm, and he really mentored and developed me and my work style. And he taught me things about even when you go to meetings, even just studying body language and really reading a room and getting the political buy-in you need for projects before the meeting.
So, it might be more work, but really finding your supporters and building that consensus. An organization like law firm that has so many different viewpoints and owners, it’s really important to get that consensus. So, he was the expert in that, and he taught me so many things that… so many valuable lessons.
Lindsay: Yes, that’s really important. And it’s interesting I think that, especially, I think, once you become a leader, politics plays such an important role in your day-to-day work.
Amanda: Absolutely. And you need to know who your council is that you float ideas by to get their feedback, I think. He taught me that everyone should really have a council and not always people… certainly, not people who always agree with you, but people who can provide a diverse perspective into what the issue is so that you’re challenging yourself and the idea.
Lindsay: Absolutely. Absolutely. So how do you help the lawyers within your firm stay up to date on changes that are happening in the law and with other legal precedents? Is that something that you even touch?
Amanda: Well, we have a wonderful research and knowledge management department that really provides more of the legal updates. They work with the attorneys on many alerts and services, but then our role is to partner with our attorneys to put out information about how we can help clients with those challenges. So, we are constantly working with teams in the firm to look at those topics and any regulatory changes or legislation that’s coming along and how that impacts our clients and then communicate that out in a way so that we can help them.
It’s really a partnership. I mean, in our firm, we have so many wonderful professionals, and it’s learning how to partner with the other departments to best serve the needs of the clients, and having those strong relationships is really key.
Lindsay: I think the underpinning of everything you’ve said today really is the importance sort of community and teamwork and obviously understanding the benefits for clients. And that’s really, really important.
Amanda: Collaboration is everything. You can’t really do anything on your own, and just having a really strong team is huge in your success and the firm’s success.
Lindsay: Absolutely. So, there’s always one final question I love to ask everybody, and that is, what is one thing you’re really enjoying right now that has nothing to do with your job?
Amanda: I’m in a stage of life when my children are not small, and I have more time to think about how I’m developing myself as a professional and as a leader and time to really think about my path, my leadership journey. And that wasn’t something I was able to do when I had… when my time was used differently. And so, I’ve really enjoyed that and really spending time… really trying to learn from them so that I can keep growing and developing into the leader that I want to become.
So that’s been great. And just a lot of travel. I have children who are essentially teens and teaching the value of seeing the world and understanding that it’s much bigger than where we sit in the US, and that’s been really great. To see the world through their eyes has been a wonderful experience. So, it’s a very peaceful time of life for me and a time of growth and development that I’m very excited about.
Lindsay: That’s wonderful. Yeah, I fully agree. I mean, travel has given me an education that formal education never offered, I find.
Amanda: Right. And I grew up in a rural environment in North Carolina without much ability to travel. So, I’m really enjoying this time in my life.
Lindsay: That’s wonderful. I love hearing that. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much to all of our listeners. Please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe to our podcasts on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Amanda: Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here.
